One more discussion starter...

"Brain in a vat" is the name for an idea: that a person's brain may be removed and put in a tank filled with fluid to keep it alive, then connected to a computer which would feed it electrical impulses which, to the brain, would be indistinguishable from those a brain in a real body, in the real world, receives.

If it was done "perfectly" (which, of course, isn't even close to being possible with current technology), a person might live an entire "life" in a simulated reality, thinking he or she had a growing body, friends, and so on. They could be "born", live and die, while being nothing more than a disembodied brain in the vat.

While this happens commonly in science fiction, philosophers have also discussed this in the past. Indeed, the idea is that we might be a brain in a vat now, and never know it. (No, I'm not that paranoid! )

As for fictional examples, probably the best known is The Matrix, though that one was a shared virtual reality (in a way, much like an incredibly more advanced massively multiplayer online game); in other words, everyone in the "vats" was a "character" in the same virtual reality. (Also, the entire bodies were kept, not just the brains.)

Typically, however, in the "brain in a vat" thought experiment, you might be the only brain in the tank; everyone else you meet would be part of the same simulation.

Again, I don't believe such a thing is the case, in real life (though, if it was, "real life" wouldn't be what I think it is...). But, if it was, what would be different?

Quoting from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri:

In other words, if it was true... what would change? Would our lives lose "meaning"?

Well, if it was true, we could never know, we could never find out (unless the simulation was imperfect in some way, like in The Matrix). So, the best thing would be... to ignore it. To live your live under the assumption that that life is real, and do the best thing you can with it.

"The real thing" and a 100% perfect simulation are, by definition, indistinguishable...

Any thoughts?

This post was last modified: 12-06-2006 11:11 AM by Pedro Timóteo.

HELL yeah, nice post.

I'm not that paranoid, but again... yeah I am sometimes.

I don't think too much would change. We'd still be looking for a way out of these fucking limits that keep us stuck from breaking the lock that holds us down, in, incapable of this or that. Us humans want everything.

How would that be different from what we live from day to day? Instead of a vat we have a skull and instead of wires we have nerves? The only thing that holds the potential for sentience is inside a dark sphere mounted on a body for it to control. I personally see no difference between my brain being hooked to a PC or my biological body.

what I wonder whenever this question pops up is:

Matrix scenario done with biological means, aka the reality we live everyday is deemed normal
but
Matrix scenario done with mechanical means, aka add one extra link to our means to experience "reality" and it's deemed scary

How much do you peeps conform in the idea of "reality"? If the very core of it would be modified it automatically turns into a horror story.
Where everyday we talk to each other without understanding a word, different realities pass us by with more dramatic differences than
biological vs mechanical, but that's just life, right? Reality is something you can conform on after you have defined it!

(and please note that it's complex enough to have several plausible answers, and I highly doubt that not even the last generation we will see born
will figure out it any better than we did. Or more like, their success is defined by our efforts to solve these questions and our ability to pass down
the info)

Perhaps the true terror here is that, if everything were a simulation it would bring into question a lot of things we do.

For example:
A friend of mine plays alot of mmos (games like wow, eve online and anarchy online). These games develop a social element,
and surprisingly people take it pretty seriously. I have seen him pissed on several occasions due to some social drama. Every time
I ask the same question: Why do you care so much? It's just a game!

Now think if all that surrounds you were a game or a simulation. Would you be afraid of the same things? Would you hold on to your mental blocks
as much? Would you start to question society's rules and social rules? What would you hold important and would you be willing to submit to the same
rules of conduct?

Hmmh, lost my place, but I hope you catch my drift

"How much do you peeps conform in the idea of "reality"? If the very core of it would be modified it automatically turns into a horror story.
Where everyday we talk to each other without understanding a word, different realities pass us by with more dramatic differences than
biological vs mechanical, but that's just life, right? Reality is something you can conform on after you have defined it! "

Reality isn't an idea. Nobody said, "Hey how about THIS!" and boom, reality happened.
Reality will be there with or without idea's. Idea's can't exist WITHOUT reality.


I understand the idea that our brains and nerves are basically just wires and stuff, but the difference is that due to nature, the brain and nerves are as efficient as POSSIBLE, and therefore anything made by our hands (Wires ect..) can't be as efficient as nature due to the fact that they are basically a drawing of a drawing of a drawing.

If the very core of reality were altered, it MIGHT become a total nightmare, or if it's altered just a bit, we'd no longer have disease, or it would ALL JUST STOP. So that claim is not noteworthy.

As far as the WOW analogy, yes... nearly everybody questions the rules. Your friend has put a lot of time into his gaming so it's understandable that he gets upset... but it's... kind of frivolous to say... get VIOLENTLY mad.

If we DIDN'T question the laws of physics, we'd never have flown, or invented the lever, the fact is that we DID question such things and instead of breaking the rules we've learned what the rules ACTUALLY ARE and USED them. Now I can get to Japan in 14 hours. We have light in our houses in an instant, I can REPLY to you no matter where you are, we can grow ears on MICE. All of this is due to reality and the fact that it doesn't change.