One thing I cannot figure out. If an atheist/ pure atheist/ etc. really believes there is no God, why do they expend energy going on and on about it to like minds? If there is nothing, why make it something by bringing more focus unto it? Do you feel a need to reassure each other in your beliefs?

I also see an underlying anger and resentment when dealing with beliefs of others, especially Christians. I can understand being angry if the church has hurt you, they've hurt me too. For folks that are supposed to have the leg up on reality, there is a lot of residual anger when dealing with believers. We learn in grade school that communication stops when we get angry. " Each time we throw mud, we lose a little ground". Why are you angry?

Christ commands me to love God with all my heart and to love you as He has loved me. If Christians could remember this and hold it up as their standard, would there be less anger in your camp?

Last I checked it was the religous who demand entire days off every week, and then many more throughout the year in order to gather together to reassure themselves that despite the fact that the claims of the religion are not merely abusrd and impossible but often quite silly, since they know others who believe like they do, that hate like they do, then they must be right.

I am aware of no such anger which you attribute to all thinking persons. So with a false premise being the totality of your argument, it is no suprise that your conlcusion is baffling even to you.

BTW referring to your subject title, if you will read the posts already offered in response to your own you will find that they have in fact been written at a very basic level. Your responses have been to employ tactics such as you employ here such as ad hominem (Attacking the man), equivocation, appeal to popularity, and the like. In otherwords you have used personal attacks, argument forms which fail to support your conclusions, and wild claims (including trying to redefine and limit reality, denying reason entirely) rather than read and try to understand the very simple and very basic arguments and evidence already offered.

If you have any interest in understanding, or in truth, then ask yourself why you would employ such tactics. Why would you so hate everyone who thinks that you must ignore all of the evidence and attribute emotional states, negative attitudes, and ill intent to them? Why would you refuse to behave honestly and civilly? Why would you not merely avoid reason and evidence, but deny them entirely? Answer these questions honestly to yourself and you will find a great deal of clarity.

This post was last modified: 01-14-2007 11:41 AM by TXStorm.

.....Your big words.......hurting my head. JK
I don't hate, really. I didn't ask for Christmas off. I'm not smart enough to "employ tactics". If I have attacked anyone, let me know where. Reality is entirely subjective, you have to see that.

You seem angry, thats all I'm saying. Did you ever think that maybe God is trying to whip up that anger to help you find your path to Him?

I have no negative attitudes, only different than yours. I'm trying to love the way I'm commanded and above all else, thats important.

I have as much clarity as I can handle at this moment.

Honesty.... ran from it for forty years, then quit running.

God is the beginning and the end. There is nothing beyond Him.

Reality is never subjective. Reality cannot be subjective. Reality is what is, not what you wish it to be.

You are attributing anger without any hint of any evidence whatsoever. Yet where you often use personal attacks, insults, etc. you attribute "love" heck you even call rape good... Clearly there is some great confusion. Perhaps since you are basing your entire world view upon negative emotion, perhaps you are simply attributing a similar methodology to everyone else. Regardless, being a rational reasonable individual does not make one angry as you claim it must.

Since the xn notion of god is absolutely impossible, absurd, hate-filled, and inherently evil, there is no reason to think that some magical evil entity is "making" me angry (so subltly that neither you nor I know it) in order to get me to follow it. The very notion is comical in its absurdity.

THere is nothing to "god" is what you mean..

It would be infinitely more accurate to say that you have only begun running, in this instance running from reality (which is difficult to do with your head in the sand while you repeat empty mantras..)

This post was last modified: 01-14-2007 01:31 PM by TXStorm.

NoMereMortal: If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they talk about him so much?

This post was last modified: 01-14-2007 11:54 PM by Pedro Timóteo.

In the reality I know, there is God and angels and satan and demons and your having no part of that. God and Jesus are as real to me as any beliefs you might have.

My reality and yours differ greatly, so, reality must be subjective.

In the article you link, you relate my spirituality to a disease. Do you see how I might be insulted by this?

I'm a recovering alcoholic. I have the disease of alcoholism. The first miracle I ever experienced was God removing my compulsion to drink. No earthly power could have done this and I proved that to myself for years. There was nothing inside me that could fight out of the pit I had put myself in.

My relationship with God is no disease and the help I need, you do not possess. I will not insult you. Your a child of God, like me, and my God requires that I love you and I cannot do that if I'm resentful towards you.

I'm beginning to think there can be no middle ground between us and the best thing I can do for you is to leave you find your own road.

Your abuse of the term "reality" does not constitute a change in reality. Reality is simply what is, since your illusions are just that, illusions, they do not exist as entities themselves, they are necessarily not reality. Therefore they cannot stand as evidence of any aspect of reality, much less require a fundamental and contradictory redefining of reality.

Knowledge requires correspondence to reality. Since no angels, gods, etc. exist, necessarily you cannot have any knowledge of them, rather the strongest claim you can honestly make is that you have a completely baseless contrary to reality belief in that which does not and cannot exist.

Remember, where reality and your beliefs are in conflict it is not reality which is mistaken. Nor will reality change to suit your desires, and trying to change the meaning of reality is simply dishonest.

Prevention is better than a cure, why not blame god for your alcholism?
He is your god, ah me. Is he not all our gods, are we but poor, lost little lambs of the flesh, in need of a helping hand?
Do excuse the briefness of this, I am going to a LAN with a few mates who actually exist.

EDIT
On that note, could someone explain to me why we treat people who believe in god any different than a forty year old who has imaginary friends?
EDIT2
As a previous sufferer of the religious disease, I can safely say that even the most basic cases seem to be partially impervious to logic and reason.

This post was last modified: 01-15-2007 04:46 PM by XTimmy.

I'm not an American or a Christian either. In a South Park episode named Bloody Mary a character of that show named Randy is made to spend time in a group called Alchoholics Anonymous. That group tries to convince Randy that Alcoholism is a disease but not an addiction and only surrendering to higher power can cure that. I thought that the show creators were merely trying to ridicule those self-help groups. But the post above proved me wrong.

"EDIT
On that note, could someone explain to me why we treat people who believe in god any different than a forty year old who has imaginary friends?
EDIT2
As a previous sufferer of the religious disease, I can safely say that even the most basic cases seem to be partially impervious to logic and reason. "



1. Because you don't have to be insane to believe in God. You can be very sane and very smart, but just not be critical about that one thing. I mean, if you WANT to treat everybody who believes in God like they need psychiatrists and medication, you can...

2. You're right.



MereMortal-

I'm an alcoholic myself. A... pretty big one. I gues you could slay I'm SLOWLY recovering. (I don't drink on weekdays anymore )

Now, there's plenty of evidence to support AA. Lots of "In recovery Alcoholics." Coming from a long line of "Diseased" individuals, I probably have a few on my speed dial.
AA is closely affiliated with religion. It's hard to find a meeting that doesn't happen in a church. BUT that doesn't mean it's necessarily the work of God.
The act of submitting yourself to a higher power means admitting that you can't take care of yourself. You can admit that to anybody though, and the practice itself is meant to make you understand that you can't make your own decisions, and need help making them.

I'm sure it's possible to be "Recovering" through your own will power, and if not, from the help of close loved ones.

Seems to me that there are three threads contained within this one thread.

1. The first one, based upon the erroneous negative emotional states and anger towards persons of reason.

2. The treatment of the insane and irrational, how to differentiate the degrees of irrationality.

3. AA and "alcoholism"

As to the first, it is no surprise to anyont that the assumptions and accusations against all persons of reason have not been substantiated and of course have no basis in reality. There is no requirement to be angry in order to realize that xnty is nonsense and inherently evil. Nor does the recognition that the judeo-xn notion of god in inherently contradictory and thus impossible, create or necessitate any emotional state whatsoever. As was observed previously, the accusations of emotional states is clearly nothing more than projection from those who have denied reality, and denied reason while embracing illusion, irrationality, and the necessarily emotion based faith.

Which leads nicely into the second thread. Kren, I believe that your response is a bit misleading since the difference is not one of kind, but rather merely degree. In any instance in which one is denying reality, one is "insane." So as XTimmy pointed out there is no difference in type between believing in one invisible friend or another, including the case where you happen to name that friend "god" or jebus.

Religion, of which AA Is clearly and undeniably a part, is just like any predator in that it preys upon the weak. So there are those who unfortunately have made poor choices and allowed their lives to get to a point where they cannot see the path out of where they have put themselves and along comes the predator, swooping down for the kill. The religion takes that confusion and need and uses it to twist the poor soul, to kick the man while he is already down, to create a situation where the subject comes to love his abuser. He thanks the religion for the harms brought about by the religion. All of the success stories of AA come from people who were strong and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps. THe remainder will sit there chain smoking several packs of cigarettes, downing pots of coffee, telling you that AA (the religion), "god" or whatnot "saved" them from addiction.. BTW never point out this fact to a room of AA followers, as their anger will be directed at you for daring to point out that they are not recovering, not free of their choices, but rather have simply shifted their behaviors to other harmful habits. They react similarly when you point out that this nonsense about "disease" is nothing more than a crutch which is used by the religion to tell them that they are not responsible for their own choices or even for their lives, and certainly not for their own salvation. Prey upon them while they are weak since that is the only way one can bring a person into religion. Healthy individuals are not so easily conned.

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.
-John Lennon