We've all had that feeling. You REALLY want to do it and you don't know why, and before you even know it... it's done and it's all your fault.

Where does that come from? Why do we want to do things that we know are wrong? Especially when we know how we'll feel afterwards, which brings me to guilt.

To FEEL guilty, not to BE guilty.

This lump in your gut that says "You TOTALLY screwed up this time, pal."

As far as I can see, insects don't feel this. You might be able to see some dogs at least ACTING like they feel it. At any rate, it seems that most things of a higher inteligence feel this. Is it a downfall OF inteligence? A side effect? And if it is, wouldn't be kind of stupid for an intelligent being to have these side effects?

Well, I'd say that there are two possible situations here.

The first is when your guilt comes from the fact that you know you're being irrational. For instance, you can't resist eating a lot of chocolate, even if you know you'll feel sick afterwards. Or you see something in a shop and just have to buy it now, even though it means you won't have money to buy food for the rest of the month. Or you go to a casino and lose all your money -- including your reserves. Or you keep getting yourself drunk to forget about your problems. You feel guilty because you know you did something stupid, and were too irrational to avoid doing it.

(By the way, I'm not saying that doing something "wild" from time to time is bad. That's a different situation.)

The second case is, in a way, the opposite of the first. I'd call it the "Hank Rearden Syndrome" (if you've read Atlas Shrugged, you'll know what I mean). What you want to do is right, but society has told you -- one could say brainwashed you -- otherwise. Say, your very religious family believes that sex is evil and a sin, necessary for reproduction and no more, so you feel guilty about desiring someone, or about feeling pleasure during sex. Or you feel guilty because you're wealthy and successful, and others aren't - even though you got there because of your intelligence and hard work, not in any dishonest way. I could give many other examples, but you get the point: you're feeling guilty because you believe a lie others told you. Because you've accepted someone else's wrong moral code.

This post was last modified: 11-23-2006 01:28 AM by Pedro Timóteo.

I agree with Pedro on this one. There is the kind of guilt where you do know something is bad for you ("opening another bottle of vodka sounds like a great idea now, but I have to get up early tomorrow") and the kind where you wonder why doing something would make you a bad person (everybody from the office takes stationary home, why can't I do the same?). In the latter case a person may choose to go with his or her principles instead of giving in to temptation, deciding that doing otherwise might bring bad karma or some other intangible misfortune. In a sense, this may be the person's way of creating an imaginary threat over himself or herself to justify choosing the "virtuous" path.

Thanks for your answers.

What about temptation?

Okay, let me rephrase that.


Sex, as Pedros adaptation of a Christian families "wrong".

But I've had sex with girls and knew it was wrong... without God in mind. It was just... not right. I HOPE, other people have had the same experience. It was just a temptation that I took advantage of, while knowing it was wrong. I've got friends too, and I've heard their (ladies me as they are) "Confessions" afterwards. They weren't happy about it either. They somehow knew it was wrong. Just a simple thing as sticking your dick in a girl you fealt nothing but physical attraction to, made them feel insecure.

No NEW BORN CHRISTIAN beliefs in the family.

So...? What then with temptation?

WHY do we feel PUSHED to do things we wouldn't normally do?

Where does temptation come from?

Before you say that sex is an animalistic behavior coliding with human monogamy, remember, sex isn't the only thing we are tempted to do.
Temptation covers many different aspects of life.
Temptation tells you not to do something your parents told you not to do. No matter what that was.

So why would one even feel the need to do something they were told not to do?

Kren: there's a difference between "wrong" and "a sin". Right and wrong can come from rational principles, from the joy or suffering resulting from your actions, and from other sources. "Sin", however, is simply (supposedly) displeasing one being: God.

Sex itself, in my opinion, is not "wrong", "sinful", "animalistic" or "dirty" (many people tend to believe the latter, even if not related to any religion).

Sex with a person you don't respect, and which will make you respect yourself less afterwards, however, can be a pretty bad idea. It will harm yourself, and possibly the other person, in the long run. Deceiving someone in order to have sex (such as pretending you love that person) is also wrong: you will be hurting them, and, again, you're betraying a part of yourself as well.

That's a much more sane standard of right and wrong than pleasing some bearded guy in the sky, if you ask me. Those kinds of sex can be wrong indeed, but not because sex is itself "dirty", or because a millennia-old book considers it a "sin".

That's a good point. The only thing yet to be is the explanation of temptation.

What is the temptation that pushes us to do things we know aren't good.
How can we be rational beings when our own rational thoughts can easily be betrayed by our actions, and are all the time? (well not ALL the time, but still...)

What is it?

Well, I'd say temptation and guilt are, in a way, the same thing - only, one is before, and the other is after.

Both arise from irrationality. You know that doing something isn't a good idea, but you pretend - you pretend that you live in a reality where that action doesn't have any bad consequences. It's wishful thinking; you want to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to pretend that spending all your money in this luxury item will not mean that you will be penniless for the rest of the month, for instance. Afterwards, when you do suffer the consequences (even if indirectly - say, you unjustly harmed someone), you feel guilty about it.

Does this make sense?

Again, there's a different case, if you're talking about religion. Here, the problem may be that your religion commands you do something irrational, self-harming, and so a part of you - the rational part, the part that loves life and refuses to surrender your mind to the irrational - "resists" doing it (or "wants" to do it, in case religion forbids it). Here, "temptation" isn't probably the right word.

This post was last modified: 11-28-2006 10:13 AM by Pedro Timóteo.

"Both arise from irrationality. You know that doing something isn't a good idea, but you pretend - you pretend that you live in a reality where that action doesn't have any bad consequences."

Actually when it comes to temptation, I think that you can already forsee the consequences... but want to do it anyways.

I see your point, but if that was the case, why do we see people cheating on thier wives while pretending there is no consequence, while we don't see people jumping off of buildings thinking the same.

Temptation seems to be a personal thing I think.
We are tempted to take that wallet on the floor and just put it in our pockets. Either way, there may be no consequences, at least to ones self.


All in all, this does make sense to me. I just have more questions about it, because temptation is so wierd to me. It seems as though it shouldn't come from the mind, because the mind seems to serve ones self, and can access all parts of the brain, and therefore could foresee any bad consequences. So why would it "try" to make you do something bad?

People want immediate gains (evolutionary psychology here). But we realize that trying for these gains may have lasting side-effects; for instance, if you like to eat ice cream, you might eat a lot of it, but then later you may have a stomach-ache; alternatively, you might want to have sex with someone, but you might feel guilty about it if your religion forbids it. These side-effects may or may not be rational (eg. stomach-ache vs. arbitrary belief system - yes, I realize there's more to account for wrt sex than just religion).

Nevertheless, temptation arises from the desire for immediate gains, which may or may not (depending on the definition of temptation) be counterbalanced by negative longer-term consequences.

This post was last modified: 12-18-2006 06:20 PM by Einsteinmonkey.